Spiel #584 | B&I vs the Italians

Yes, it was clearly luck to be able to kill Tass' Leader at that point. I was at the right time at the right place. I guess 1 turn later, the 2 armies would have merged.

And then it's impressive how things can develop after turn 40. In a few turns, a lot of things happens. It gives some good lessons on how far you should be in research, settlements, army, etc. by turn 40 in Large maps.

Taking Tass out so fast felt a bit of a luck factor to me, and a bit disappointing about game scales shifting so fast into our favor. Nevertheless good plays from Keldon and Hawk (didn't see Fist much ), you had me and Eskild working our brains overtime to have you contained (we've also prepared a trap, which didn't quite work ).
Anyway great match guys, thanks everyone for game! Hope we get to play in the future again! 


p.s. From what I remember about my initial role - it was to build strong economics in order to back anyone up if needed, building items on demand and with the focus on the late game.
As options we considered Dwarf Riders/cavalry units with pistols, but it was not a set plan. Also from what I remember, initially the plan to attack at turn 20-30 included only 3 players (Hillia, Jean, Eskild), I was to expand at the time.

Screenshots of the crashes/issues I had:

Turn 23


Turn 28
I had to redo a Sphynx Temple fight because of the drowning of my Leader and all my units survived so I disbanded the Beetle Rider the 2nd time (he had died before the reload).

Well, thanks Hawk and Tass for these very nice reactions, makes me feel great about playing with you...

It's really sad we have this kind of spirit on both sides, not creating a nice atmosphere in the community.
I guess it partly stems from your total misunderstanding of and grudge against actions like turn order optimization on my side.

TLTR!

Write less, play faster.

Ciao.

Good game, but ...it's too long to read!

Despite us we lost, Fistandantilus has the highest score of all players

So, time to tell the story of our big 4vs4!
We have tried to organize this game of A Song of Blight and Ice (B&I) vs The Sinners (Sin) for quite some time and eventually, it started after cbower left AoW3, so we were only 3 on B&I's side. We invited Jean de Metz to join us and finally, the big battle was able to start. It was the first team game with all B&I players and the first team game with B&I + Jean, while The Sinners had already played together and have known each other for a long time. So our team had to coordinate well to avoid being just "several good players playing each on his side" (at the end of the game, our team's members are ranked #2, #3, #4 and #5...) but rather be more than the sum of our skills, and create real synergies between us.


We had started discussions on how best to work on the strengths of a team when cbower was still there. After his departure, the discussions were much less animated and fruitful, but still, we came up with a basic strategy:
- Jean and I would team up on the surface, me playing Rogue to have nice scouting and him playing Sorcerer. I would be able to raise an army on the road through Charm and he would be able to raise one through summons, so we would have a nice spearhead force capable of striking our enemies in their lands. Sorcerers have Master Illusionist and Rogue have several concealment abilities so we could also hide from our enemies and sneak through their lines. We both took Destruction Adept (Jean took Destruction Master I think) to be able to Hasty Plunder the cities we would take and use Scorched Earth strategies. I took Explorer, which also yielded us the whole map when I researched Master Cartographer. And my final spec was Partisan, which also proved critical to harass Fistandantilus much later in the game.
- Ezekiel and AlXStormRage would team up underground. Ezekiel would scout with Cherubs and expand, while AlX would produce a strong Dreadnought economy. AlX wanted to try Tigran Dreadnought, which benefits from the gold bonus of Tigran's cities. Ezekiel wants for the Dwarves, which are a strong pick UG.
- we would try to synchronize our "power surges" to have working armies at around the same time, around turn 20-30, to go hunt for our enemies. AlX and Ezekiel should aim for Pistol Boar Riders for AlX (Ezekiel was supposed to give him a Dwarf city) and Ezekiel for some class units. Jean and me would aim for Phantasm Warriors and Assassins (move fast around most terrains).
- we also discussed going for Beacon victory with AlX getting Dwarf and Tigran Champion Racial Governance (RG) and lighting the Beacons.

We set up a Dropbox's shared folder between us to exchange screenshots.

We'll see communication and cooperation in the team was not as good as that and some parts of the strategy were actually never really agreed by some team members (who didn't reject them or propose better ones either), and therefore never applied.


Everyone on our team developed at a good pace and vassalized his closest independent, settled an Outpost, etc. Everyone? No, not me! I was on an island, cut from the main (and quite big) continent, and it meant it would take me a lot of time to settle outside of my island, as I would need to research Basic Seafaring, bring a Settler to water (2-3 turns), travel for about 2 turns on water, disembark, then reach a favourable site (2-3 turns). And I had been reckless and tried to clear a Trading Post defended by 2 T3 (I think, don't remember very well now) too early, losing my Cavalry and I think my Leader too. My army was weak and the Quest my City-size independent gave me was on another very small island north of my medium-size island. So I had to scrape together the weak army I had and try to reach the island before the Quest expired. I failed and didn't get any reward from the independent, but rather, a relationship malus. The scores (see at the bottom of the report) indeed show I was behind at the beginning of the game.

AlX had selected the wrong layer and ended up on the surface with us. Fortunately, a Cave Entrance was nearby and we quickly agreed on an expansion plan:



My Crow and Ezekiel's Cherub were sent to scout for our enemies, who were likely in the south-east corner of the map (we were on the north-west).
Around turn 21, we found Tass. We discussed potential strategies with Jean and agreed to go straight for Tass, going through a Fey Dwelling to take control of it. Jean would try to get Phantasm Warriors while I would bring the stacks I had just acquired and Assassins I would produce at Lansdale.

Indeed, my misfortune had turned and with 2 (I think) Bards I had produced, I was able to Charm no less than 2 (!!) Human (!!) Warbreeds, together with the help of my Charming Leader. They were mind-controled in a Dungeon in the domain of Lansdale, the Human City near me, so I also received 2 good units with them. Lansdale was an ideal city, with a Dungeon, Trading Post, Maelstrom and many other sites, which meant it could produce Assassins or Scoundrels boosted with two Mythical City Upgrades (MCU): the Mercenary Camp (+1 def, + 1 melee damage - and +1 ranged damage but useless for Assassins, good for Scoundrels though -) and the Mariner's Guild (Water Concealment). And I could easily one-turn them with all the production bonus in the domain. Human Warbreeds have the big advantage of Swimming, which is ideal to go with a Rogue. I also happened to have received a Flying Mount from the Trading Post which had cost me dearly earlier in the game, so I was even more mobile with my Leader (and I had a Swimming, Free Movement AD to go with me).

We thus chose Option 2:



Despite the Large map, the game was broadly decided during mid game.

On turn 25, my Leader and AD hero were south of Hantuli, the Tigran Vassal of AlX. Jean's Leader was south of his domain. We were about 2-3 turns from each other and moving according to the plan designed earlier (see above). We agreed on two paths for our armies, to both be able to clear sites and avoid "eating each other's meals". Ezekiel (Eskild) cooperated with us and provided us with very helpful scouting through 1 Cherub he moved in front of our armies. At that time, I was very low on mana and not able to cast more Crows to scout in front of (both of) us (I was casting Iron Grip on all my cities, among other things).
On the plan below, you can also see my Settler about to reach the continent (below "Lost Library" on the left).

We had also spotted a Giant Dwelling, Tomstod, and I considered an option to move through a river (much faster than by land, thanks to Swimming), reach the Dwelling, take it, and then join back with Jean (option 2, in dark green on the map). At that time, I had also a Sorcerer hero with my main army, and he could do a second group, clearing in the north-south axis. The idea was to meet with all our troops at Eem Elsqua, the Fey Dwelling.

Shortly after, I received a Quest from the Giants, and then confirmed I would go for it.
At that point, the Sinners were very fair play and nice to me and I'd like to thank them for that! I was constantly exchanging the mounts between my Leader and my AD, who had Vision Range Upgrades (+ later, a +2 Vision Range item) and True Sight, to benefit from the +2 Vision Range of Flying Mount. In normal times, the Wyvern would be mounted by my Leader, but everytime I wanted to scout a bit, I would give it to my AD and then back to my Leader. Except that my Leader didn't Swim!! So when I unmounted over a water hex, he drowned!... No warning was given saying: "You're about to drown, are you sure you want to unmount?". I filed a bug/issue report with Triumph and the Sinners allowed me to reload.
(I also had at least 2 crashes)

Jean was very cautious, and probably rightly so, and didn't want to try very hard sites at that point, so he didn't want to clear the Wizard Tower Ruins for instance. That also played a role in the path we chose (I would try the hard sites with my Leader's stack).
So in the end, my Sorcerer took the light blue path, Jean the dark blue path and my Leader the dark green path.

Meanwhile, Ezekiel (until his Cherub got killed) and I scouted Tass' lands and found Fistandantilus.
Fistandantilus had a strong party of Bards, with a strong Warlord hero (level 9) called Girron and was apparently doing great.


Underground, AlX and Ezekiel were expanding well but considered they had never agreed to the initial plan of giving a Dwarf city to AlX to build Boar Riders or coordinate their power surge. So at turn 29, AlX was not really in a position to move forward with an attack army. Ezekiel was clearing toward the middle of the map with his own force and took a Giant Dwelling (and plundered it, not sure to be able to hold it, which proved to be too cautious because our enemies never really reached that point, but with the information at that stage, it was a good move).
They were both building a strong economy.

Fistandantilus moved Girron toward us and at turn 31, he was level 11, and getting dangerously close to Jean's domain (and the Giant Dwelling of Tomstod).
At the same time, Ezekiel spotted the army of Tass, led by a level 7 Tigran AD with some good Orc Crusaders, Black Knight and Martyrs. We later found out he had another hero, a Rogue with some stack concealment, and stack to back them.

On turn 32, Jean and I updated the plan from turn 21.
We had found out that the Fey Dwelling had become a Vassal of Fistandantilus and we were about 2-3 turns away from Tass' army so we had to be cautious. The plan was that I would take the Dwelling and move close to Tass but out of range, concealing in all the Dense Vegetation and sites (Urban Concealment), then move in the back of Tass and attack Gragnano. Jean would strike at the same time but another city, San Nicolo, moving through a route farther north than me. We would have to raze a Watchtower with a Crow or something, to shut the eyes of Tass.




There was a Shrine to the Fallen Angel north of the Feys, which I used and then I moved near the Fey, concealed. I did not attack a Dungeon on the same turn to avoid revealing my position to Fistandantilus as he could see it (and also to keep the Regrowth). The turn after, I attacked the Dwelling in auto-combat as he had kept a Crow adjacent to it. The fight went well and despite the Fey T3 defending it, it fell under our control.
We then moved according to plan and Tass retreated.

We calculated carefully how Tass could move to choose the locations for our stacks.


At the same time, Ezekiel was moving below us UG and was starting to encounter some enemy troops. I sent a Marauder recruited at an Inn to support his scouting, with a Cave Concealed unit with Night Vision (Goblin Marauder = very good for this).

On turn 34, Fistandantilus decided to show us where he was (weird decision, why Fistandantilus?). He had some strong units and maybe hesitated to attack the Merfolk Dwelling of Jean in auto but then decided it was not a good idea.


Things were heating up UG as Warlord Keldon also showed up with some strong stacks, not far from Ezekiel.
And we were also worried about Fistandantilus' Girron's stack, who was last seen close to Jean's domain.

Jean cautiously moved south with a secondary army, scouting in front of him for signs of Girron. On turn 35, I found back Girron with a Crow looking for him: he was near a Naga Dwelling south-east of his previous position and relatively far away from Jean.
On the same turn, Ezekiel found the 2nd and last hero (we had only 2 heroes + 1 Leader) of Fistandantilus: Xor-Thi, a Draconian Arch Druid, level 5. He was accompanied by a Shadow Stalker and some nice mind-controled units (2 Elite Floating Apprentice among other things), showing that Fistandantilus was way ahead of me to produce Shadow Stalkers. At that time, I was still at least 7 turns away from having Shadow Stalker researched. But I had actually started discussing how to produce Shadow Stalkers at turn 28 or even earlier as shown on this discussion with the team (who broadly advised me to directly produce Shadow Stalkers; in the end I went for evolving Scoudrels, as it was much cheaper):



I cleared a Wizard Tower Ruins on turn 35 and got enough RP to research Master Cartographer, which meant I saw all the map (with fog of war) and was subsequently able to plan our moves very efficiently, and to share the information with my allies (though they did not use it as much as they could, never asking me screenshots of the map where they had no vision).

On turn 35, Jean had 7 cities and I think AlX had reached Monoculture earlier (I didn't note when). I didn't note how many cities the rest of us had, but I probably had 4. Ezekiel had 5 cities.
Fistandantilus had 5 cities, Tass 4, Keldon 3 and Hawk 5.

Tass moved east and I was able to circle around him by the west side, moving concealed on Dense Vegetation and sites with my Leader, AD, 2 Warbreeds, Fire Giant and Human Knight.

UG, Ezekiel retreated toward the south in front of Keldon's army who pursued from north to south. AlX was moving from west to east with very experienced and strong stacks. We spotted Hawk's Leader (level 9) and about 4 stacks of units at Ram it Down.


On turn 38, we had a false alert as we thought Keldon was moving toward Jean's domain: a Dungeon had been cleared in the north, UG and scouts from Keldon and Fistandantilus were popping out of the underground near Jean. But scouting parties from Ezekiel and me didn't find anything.
At the same time, in the south, everything accelerated as I spotted Tass' leader with my "watchtower" AD.



Tass had not been very cautious, leaving his Leader with a relatively weak stack (it was a Very Likely fight), and in range of my troops, which he probably thought were further away (they were concealed on the Lost Library). He was probably planning to regroup with his main army who had moved back toward his lands, but I was able to strike and then retreat 1-2 hexes, staying out of range. Tass was in the void.
The army of Tass moved north-east for some reasons... leaving the field open for Jean and I to start capturing and Hasty Plundering his cities one by one.
Jean was moving toward San Nicolo at this time and he changed course to reach Tass' throne. As he was already close, he could make it before Tass came back and he was dead.

UG, Keldon controlled the Archon Dwelling of Bernarius (that Ezekiel had controlled for a short time), Hawk the Fey Dwelling of Fal-Lysse, as well as the Oupost of British Steel and the city of Ram It Down. AlX was coming from the south-west and Ezekiel was retreating from Bernarius toward the south. Keldon moved behind Ezekiel. Hawk was moving toward AlX to confront him at British Steel that the Tigran Dreadnought had just captured.

Hawk had a big army and had built a Fortress at a choke point. It was a game of "are you ready to attack 2 vs 3 at a choke-point?" with movements forward and backward for a few turns.




Exactly at the end of "mid game" (if we consider it to end at turn 40), Jean eliminated Tass by taking this turn and we started the late game of this Large map on a strong position: the armies of Ezekiel and AlX matched those of Hawk and Keldon, we were playing 4 vs 3 and Jean and I were about to conquer all the remaining cities of Tass, getting nice income through the plunder.

Thanks to Master Cartographer, I knew there were two Cave Entrances behind the lines of Fistandantilus, leading straight to Mr. Hawk's core lands. I also knew the position and how to access the cities of Fistandantilus.
We spotted Fistandantilus settling on a unhospitable island south-west of Tass' island and not far, Xor Thi and some Shadow Stalkers and King Shock Serpents (concealed on Water).


While Jean and I considered we had gained full control of Tass' old island, Fistandantilus tried a bold move and took back Tass' old throne. We decided to act cautiously and stayed grouped together, waiting for San Nicolo to be plundered before moving out and trying to get back the throne.
Fistandantilus could have played more aggressively and pressed with more troops at this stage but he was probably as afraid by our troops as we were by his (many Shadow Stalkers, Elite Apprentices, King Shock Serpents...). So he backed down and moved back to his side of the ocean.
Surprisingly, Fistandantilus himself (the Leader) was still playing around the Merfolk Dwelling of Jean in the north.
Fistandantilus did not drain the effects of Shrine of the Fickle Mermaid, Haste Berries and did not garrison Inns all around his island so I was able to take advantage of them with Crows, circling his islands and assessing his defenses.
Around that time, AlX built me a Life Drain sword and Tireless boots, which would make my Total Awareness and First Strike Leader very tough to kill. The sword went to Ezekiel in the end (and I never had to use the gear actually, my Leader never did any big battle, except against Tass earlier).



Meanwhile, UG...
On turn 44, Ezekiel had reached Fal-Lysse and taken it, Keldon right on his heels with 3 stacks of 6 units and 1 stack of 5, all pretty impressive.
On turn 45, Hawk had retreated back to a newly built city between Ram It Down and his other cities.

On turn 47, a new plan was drawn to take advantage of the blockade near Ram It Down: as Hawk and Keldon were busy watching AlX and Ezekiel in the blank of the eye, Jean and me would move in their backs and backstab Hawk with our strike force.
Rhialto, my Sorcerer, was now more than level 11 and had thus Master Illusionist, to conceal the Shadow Stalker, Apprentice and Node Serpent (mind controlled for all of them, and evolved from a mind-controlled Scoundrel for the Stalker) that accompanied him. I had also specifically leveled up a Crow to Elite to go with Rhialto: the Crow had True Sight (Elite) and was scouting in front of Rhialto before joining his stack to benefit from the concealment. Rhialto would circle Fistandantilus' island through the north to attack Dahata and create a diversion to confuse our opponents' on our intentions.



AlX and Ezekiel were not very enthusiastic about the plan as it would mean they would have to wait doing nothing, which seemed boring and not very exciting to them. They planned a very dangerous attack on Keldon, checking his position and preparing to attack him.


Maybe fortunately for us, Keldon did not move south as planned but circled north-west to come back near Hawk. The lock was almost fully in place.
As our allies were growing impatient, I tried to calculate when we could reach Hawk's throne but made some mistakes in my calculations (+ I had not taken into account that the Flying mount my AD would bring me after I embarked with my Leader would not give me Flying... a unit needs to have Flying when it enters water to be able to fly, issue reported to devs).


On turn 48, a Rogue hero invasion Cosmic Event hit our world with Phoenyx and stuff spawning everywhere. I ended up losing a recently settled Outpost (not a big deal) while Jean mind-controlled the level 15 Rogue hero... (by the way, we should report that to devs, no? or change it in the balance mod)

A third phase of our attacks was launched at around the same time: Ezekiel had been moving UG through the northernmost area and was getting close to Madrid, north of Keldon's lands. Meanwhile, one of my Crow had recruited units at an Inn and they soon arrived 2 turns away from Rome, the throne of Keldon. And another Crow recruited an Eagle Rider near Amsterdam (previously Bernarius, the Archon Dwelling).
A fourth phase launched soon after (on turn 51) to divert attention from our big strike on Hawk's back with Jean: I recruited units at an Inn in the south-eastern corner of Fistandantilus' island and attacked his cities there. This was chaos with attacks everywhere!



Meanwhile, Jean spotted an opportunity to take down Fistandantilus' leader on turn 48 and started to prepare for it, moving his secondary army closer and closer to the target, with Draconian Flyers monitoring Fistandantilus' every moves, while staying out of sight.
All our operations had benefited a lot from a Cosmic Event reducing the vision range of everyone by 2, that I had chosen earlier after opening a Cataclysm Box.

While we were about to enter the UG in the back of Hawk, we spotted Girron and Xor Thi waiting for us at the wrong place, west of Fistandantilus' island.

On turn 51, Ezekiel and AlX finally retreated behind the choke point where Tass had previously built a Fortress (which was razed at some point). They stayed there for the rest of the game.


The rest of the game was about taking Hawk's throne, putting pressure on Keldon in the north, snipping Fistandantilus' cities and casting Incite Revolt and Guild of Shadow Thieves on them... until they surrendered. Jean managed to snipe Fistandantilus' Leader.
An illustration of the economy of Fistandantilus' collapsing following my harassment on his cities:



Overall, I believe we had a combination of individual good performances (check the scores below) and good strategies (the common march with Jean, and the scouting of Ezekiel; the elimination of Tass; the lock with Ezekiel and AlX at Ram It Down; the backstabbing of Keldon with Ezekiel; the backstabbing of Hawk of Jean and me; the harrassing of Fistandantilus without facing him directly) which led us to victory. The Sinners did not display a very coordinated strategy this time, it would be interesting to hear their side of the game.
I believe we could have an even stronger team if each person played more for the team and less for himself, even if we probably had some of the best AoW3 PBEM players in the team this time.

The scores are below. I displayed them at turn 39, just before Tass was eliminated.

For general scores, we clearly see that AlX, Ezekiel, Jean, Fistandantilus and I are way ahead of the rest, Keldon is in a 2nd group and Tass and Hawk are behind. The teams were not very balanced so we do not have much glory to have won. Still, it was very interesting for me to play my first 4vs4 and I'm grateful to the Sinners for having accepted to play us.
Interestingly, this difference was already apparent on turn 39 when Tass died. And Fistandantilus was ahead of us, an indicator of his skills!



In terms of Domain, AlX (Amanda) was ahead most of the time, thanks to his numerous settlements as a Tigran Dread. I was behind at the beginning but, to my surprise, made up for my weak start later on.


In terms of Happiness, it's interesting to see the end of the game: I reached more than 400 thanks to Wealthy Empire (that I had and kept since almost turn 40, rationing my expenses to keep it on, to increase my incomes) and the bonus from getting Evil (I razed a lot of cities). Conversely, Fistandantilus went to -200 because I kept him there by capturing his cities and in the end destroying his economies with strategic spells.


In terms of Knowledge, Jean was way ahead of us as he focused a lot on it as a Sorcerer, getting his first Eldritch's Horror pretty early (didn't note when).
I came third thanks to clearing and Iron Grip, maximizing the RP income from my city. Fistandantilus did well too!


Finally, the military!
There is something very interesting to highlight: on turn 19 I was the last and almost as weak as when I started the game with only 400+ points. Then I Charmed the two Human Warbreeds and got started. With v1.21, this would be much more difficult or even impossible, because of the battle enchantments now present on Dungeons, precisely to avoid things like what I did.

When Tass was killed, by contrast, our team was the strongest militarily and our advantage grew over time.

Confirmed by Tasslehoff

Confirmed by Fistandantilus

Confirmed by Ezekiel

Confirmed by AlXStormrage

Confirmed by Mr. Hawk

Match has been reported, please confirm!

Match has been reported, please confirm!

Well, congrats on B&I for the victory, well played guys!

Hi there. I´m heading for a holiday from tomorrow to around the 19th or 20th of June, I might not take turns during this period. Cheers.