Recommended turn order based on play times:

As I stated previously in my personal reply to the main judges - I would like to clarify, that the temporary judges were able to review the proof of cheating, without the access to specifics on "how" it was done. I personally was more interested in the game developers reply, but due to sensitivity of that we were not given access to it, only general conclusion.

Also, as I've wrote the judges while reviewing the proof, I believe that:
We need to expand rules to make the recording of one's turns mandatory. From the moment game is being opened to the moment it's uploaded on the server (breaks in the between can still be made with the turn divided in several videos). Each player must keep the recordings of the turns of a specific game, until the next round begins (or even send the links to all of the turns to the judges for review after the game ends, or just on demand). If we are to do that - it'd make a hell'uva tougher for the cheaters to cheat, while the honest players would get reassured that the game is as fair as it can be. This would probably need to be regulated - e.g. in what resolution the recording must be done to be discernible, with what software (as we know, some programs make AoW glitch with them) and there will definitely be those that will think of reasons against that, but from what I see - this is probably one of the best ways to catch cheaters spot-on. 

Personally, I usually don't record my turns, but if we're to implement this rule - I will gladly do it. Fair lose is still better than cheated win. 
I would actually go as far as to suggest making poll whether community would like to implement this measure. 

== Cheating case ==
So AlXStormrage, Olop and Marcuspers reviewed evidence demonstrating DarkRider had cheated and the elements we had that led us to think SeeR knew about the cheating (but as stated before, we do not believe SeeR himself cheated). Among the 3 judges, Fistandantilus, Markymark and me, there may also have been changes of mind since the beginning of the case.
In the end, the conclusions were:
- all 6 agreed the evidence demonstrated DarkRider had cheated.
- 4 considered SeeR very likely did not know about DarkRider cheating, 2 considered very likely that he did know (there are more nuances actually, but to simply that's the 2 broad positions).

As a consequence, the ban on DarkRider for all PBEM Tournaments and all ranked games is maintained. The ban on SeeR is reverted. SeeR won't be able to continue the 2vs2 Tournament as he is now alone in his team and replacements are not allowed. We however hope he will continue the Duel Tournament as well as ranked games.

In the name of the 3 judges and the 3 players who reviewed the case, I'd like to apologize to SeeR for the harm caused to him by the judgement process.

The other judges or reviewers may like to complete this picture, I'll let them do so. @all: please keep in mind that, as explained before, the details on what happened, etc. cannot be shared, so I hope everyone will be reassured by the fact that we got unanimity regarding the cheating and will not feel the need to ask for more details.

== 2017 PBEM Duel Tournament  ==
Round 4 has just been completed!
As DarkRider is eliminated, one seat is open on round 5. Fistandantilus and Marcus (as I will be playing the player who will replace Dark, I was not involved in the decision) agreed that the best replacement would be one of the player eliminated on round 4. Potential players have been contacted and Mr Hawk was randomly drawn by Marcus.
Round 5 will use v1.22 (reminder: changelog in this article) on the main branch, which means we need to wait about 48 hours, for v1.22 to be released on the main branch. So please do NOT host your games for now. As soon as v1.22 is on the main branch, you can start hosting the games.
Meanwhile, please send your class/race to the judges (if you don't need to wait for the replacement of DarkRider to be announced). We already received a couple of class/race.

== PBEM 2vs2 Team Tournament ==
48 hours left to end of round.
@players involved in round 4: please unsubscribe from the main branch temporarily. That way when we update the main branch with v1.22, you'll stay with v1.21 (if you have other games with the main branch, they'll have to wait until your tournament game finishes, before you can play your turns in these games, but that should be pretty fast: v1.22 will be updated shortly after the deadline, and then you should be able to play your turn with v1.21 in less than 24 hours I guess, meaning you'll be able to resubscribe quickly).

I can't commit to keeping the findings confidential, so I won't be a judge with that constraint.  Knowing me, I'd probably give the information to wikileaks.  Seriously, I'm an advocate for transparency.  I believe more good comes from it than bad.

Yes, I would like to review the case also.

Hi, 

yes, would like to act as a temporary judge to review the case.

== Cheating case ==
Sorry for the delay to follow up on this, we were waiting for an answer from the devs and I was also on a quite busy business trip, so it took more time than wished.

Once again, I am sorry we are not fully transparent but the nature of the cheating and detection method means we cannot share it publicly without causing harm. I can understand people are not happy with that but it's a bit like asking spies to explain all what they do and be fully transparent: that would make them totally ineffective to fight terrorists, etc.

We prepared a series of proofs of the cheating which can be shared with a limited number of players, if they agree to act as the judges are doing and keep the information confidential. Gilafron, Olop, AlX, Marcus, you expressed their interest in seeing this, please tell us (by PM or here) if you want to examine these proofs.

Regarding SeeR's ban, we are reviewing it following the discussion here and with some players. We might also request the opinion of 1-2 other players to decide what to do. So please be a little more patient on this.
Thanks all for your feedback, it made us rethink the case somehow.

Hellbrick wrote "IIRC, there was a precedent of cheating in another team game, which didn't lead to any disciplinary actions against the teammate of the cheater". Yes, it was in a game involving Marcus and Evgendil where Evgendil cheated. As Marcus pointed out, the cheating happened only on the last turn and was spotted (by me) before Marcus could do anything, so it's very different from now as Marcus could not know about it.

Regarding what Marcus said, we did send all the information to Triumph.
And the ban for DarkRider was 3-0, not 2-1. Same initially for the ban for SeeR but things evolved following the discussions, and it may further evolve following additional elements sent today. We'll see for the final decisions in a few days.

I'd also like to clarify that Triumph did not specifically said DarkRider cheated, but rather their explanations of some stuff we observed strongly pushed the "cheating" case. I am quite vague but, again, being more explicit could help some to cheat more easily...

As I said previously, we have ways to detect cheating. They're obviously not automatic and explaining all the details would help potential future cheaters. So my advice is that anyone having a doubt, or noticing something weird should report it to judges.

== 2017 PBEM Duel Tournament ==
13 days left and 1 match still ongoing, which will probably require the whole remaining time and be decided by score.
Depending on the results of the process described above, DarkRider and maybe SeeR, should be replaced.

@all players already knowing their opponent for round 5, please send your class/race to judges: Fistandantilus, Marcuspers and me, if you're not playing one of us.
v1.22 used for round 5, probably v1.23 for round 6.

== PBEM 2vs2 Team Tournament ==
9 days left and 2 matches still ongoing unfortunately, which means probably both decided by score...
3 more rounds to go so probably about 9 months.
Round 6 will use v1.22.
Markymark and I discussed the replacement of West Coasters (as it will affect his team, Fistandantilus was not involved): the two teams that will lose in round 5 will be proposed to replace West Coasters on round 7, because they have the same number of victories (3 victories, 2 losses, and West Coaster = 3 victories) so are the closest in terms of success/strength. If both are interested, a qualification match will be organized between the 2 teams.

Thank you $eer, we had much fun in games with you in the battlefield.
Was a honor to Play with you in much games.

Since now, no one is banned (when you are banned really : can not more Login to the page and no one can Play here with you)

The ban is for the 2on2 tournament firstly. But we discuss if a Player get a permanent ban too, but it is not decided for now.

When you have a problem with a certain Player, it is not the only once player at this place, and we are sports man, so making not a huge Problem.

About cheating, when you think, the cheats can not used  in live games (or it is difficulter) , you are think false. Maybe the last live tournament was won by a cheater. The cheats can be used in live multiplayer games too. Can be used in discord games too or in all others communities. And competive games make cheats more interest.
So it is sometimes better to play just for fun (without Prices)

So it is hard to Play competive game in aow3, because normal Players will think the winners using cheats (when i talk to normal Players, i hear exactly this, some Players like gabthegab are winning too often).
About PBEM
Normal Players can not Play live games, because they have no time for it, so pbem is a good solution for all players.

Not make anti-advertisement against PBEM, i think PBEM can be used from much more Players.

After reviewing my steam conversation with Hiliadan when i got the black screen at the time of its occurence 
( which coincidentally did not trigger a reload warning ) 

My words were " i believe the game has possibly been tampered with"

i did not accuse any particular individual or more specifically my opponents in involved in the game.

If i was aware of my teammate cheating why would i do this ?

If my teammate was cheating , so be it we are disqualified from tournament and he should be exposed.
I was not directed to "watch" my teammate after his earlier crash....and honestly when i get home from work i usually have between 4-6 pbem turns waiting , sure i would take my time a little more with tournament turns , but i am definately not "counting hexes" on my allies army movements from where units were at end of his previous turn.


The protest i have is the harsh ban being imposed on me when i was the one that brought the possibilty of foul play to the attention of the judges.

Regardless , with this new discord group that has been setup by DreadReaper for live games , you will not see me much on battlefield anymore anyways. I did enjoy being part of the tournaments , and hosting some extra fancy modded pbem games occasionally. But at heart i have always been preferential to live games , or PBEM style heavily modded Titanic Map sized 2 player co-op live classic turn campaign type extreme difficulty maps with ranging between 6-30 mods.


I will host my final "hurrah" pbem game this evening it will be the last one i host for quite some time as these days work as well as the doberman and my soccer team take up the majority of my free time , and ive been having trouble keeping up with pbem turns even on 4-7 day timers.



This final PBEM will be 2v2v2v2 , very challenging settings and of course with many of the mods i have been experimenting with since the release of the mod tools.

It will be a big map and at least VERY STRONG defender strength perhaps consider even the SUPER STRONG setting allowed by the extended settings mod.

i invite any vetrans to grab a seat at the TaverN

good luck to whomever reaches the finals vs Gab&Tussel , they are some tough bastards to beat , i had thought we were on our way to handing gab his official first defeat.

anyhow
don't forget to enjoy the occasional adult beverage once in a while when playing ur turns

$eeR

As this situation is getting more tense, in order for the sake of stability of this community I propose the following.
 
I will gracefully accept the judge’s decision if
 
 
1. All judges (Hil, Fist, Mark) and Gilfraron (if as judge) individually review the accusations, proof and my explanation of accusations
2. Individually message me their decision and explanation of the decision
 
This will make solve all the problems and everyone can be in peace.
 
Regarding Seer's accusations I leave to Seer and other community members.
 
 
@Hil, I cannot share that publicly or unlisted because my opponent can access it, the game is still going on and I don't want my opponent to see it. I am still confident that this investigation was triggered by my opponent when I mistakenly shared publicly, whoever wants to judge send me their email I will share with them.
 
On the other note, it is my mistake for deleting the videos that dated more than month back (I have some problems with storage and recording where my FPS drops below 10 and unplayable I have mentioned this in the game and judges). It is also my mistake that I didn't check my outbox that the message didn't transmit. I agree on both these mistakes.
 

For your information, we are waiting for DarkRider to send us the video back. He tried to share it to my email but I could not open it, so I provided another one and waiting (and proposed to make it "Unlisted" which would be easier to access for all judges). When we have the video, we can make more comments.

SeeR did explain the strategy of DarkRider and him to us. As I said, the judges have not questioned this strategy. The cheating exposed and the ban of SeeR do not mean this strategy cannot work and requires cheating. So the fact that SeeR explained this strategy to me does not mean there was no cheating or that he did not know about it, this is quite unrelated. It would be very nice of everyone if you could wait until we have the video and answer some of the previous comments before making other comments that just "pour oil on the fire" for no benefit.

Olop, I would be interested if you could give me more details by PM because, unlike for AlX for which we argued during our 4vs4 so I see what he is talking about, and Gilafron with whom we discussed by PM, I don't really understand what you are implying.
I also proposed to you to discuss and explain more by PM.

I can understand that some feels uncomfortable with the decision and the process and we are ready to discuss it with them as I said before.

AIXStormrage> I've had my personal fallout with Hilliadan, due to "domineering", 

I have had similar "dominering" experiences also.


AIXStormrage> but it's personal, and it never had influenced judging process for me.

Have you been accused of cheating?  If you were accused of cheating do you think the "domineering" could possibly influence actions?  

Seer> Ouch thats pretty nasty Hiliadan , Im not aware of any cheating by Darkrider , we worked very hard on our teamwork strategy , and i did explain it to you in private when you asked me on steam chat. 

Seer> Please explain to me how you think he cheated ? 

Until there is more than Hiliadan's (and the other judges') word that
Seer MIGHT have known about the cheating, I respectfully have to take
Seer at his word.  From my personal experience, I have more reason to
trust Seer.

I am happy to see that people have an opinion here and a voice. It shows that this community means something to all of us and that we appreciate it!
I also believe that the judges are right not to show the information. I could also think that maybe, if someone is still very wary, the judges could show Gilafron as a neutral community member the evidence and Gilafrom will then confirm the judges decision to everyone. I agree that it seems like Seer indeed did not follow and do his duties, so the punishment is not without reason at all. And I dod not know enoug to say whether it is too harsh or not, I leave that evaluation to more experienced members of the community.
I very much agree with AIXStormrage all in all, beautiful text AIX!

Also I want to clarify/apologize: Saying "this mess" I didn't mean the proof or the decision. I only meant this sad subject which is a mess. Just why would you cheat? A victory cheated is way worse than an honest defeat, you'll always feel like an imposter.

I also want to use my voice to thanks not only the judges but everyone here that contributes to the community and keeps it running fair and well. Thank you!

@all putting my 5 cents in:

• Integrity
  When the tournament started, everyone had a chance to read the rules and regulas. Meaning that the collegiate of the judges was made public in the very beginning. If, for some reason, a person distrusts a judge (or more than one), why would the said person participate in such tournament? 
  I am not the most influential person on this site, but if my word means something - I believe that all 3 judges, namely Markymark, Fistandantilus and Hilliadan are honourable and honest people, and doubting their integrity is a doubt directed to all community, which is sad. I've had my personal fallout with Hilliadan, due to "domineering", but it's personal, and it never had influenced judging process for me.


• Transparency
  In the past, I've discovered the loophole, which I made publicly known. At that time Hilliadan chose to hide the details, at least until devs fixed it. Looking back, I have to admit that it was, indeed, the right decision. 
  Therefore, I am actually wondering if the same can be done here - assuming devs are preparing a fix for it, when the patch comes out - the info on how the Darkrider had cheated or how he was caught, can be shared then.
  I do believe that disclosure of the details to community should eventually be done, but only after there are steps taken to prevent such occurrence in the future.


• Evidence
  whenever the case, which requires the attention of the judges, occurs, it's up to the participants to:
  a) gather and send all relevant info to the judges
  b) make sure judges received it
  c) keep a copy of all sent info somewhere safe
  what I am saying is that the excuses like "I sent the info, didn't know you didn't receive it" or "I had deleted it by accident/because didn't had enough space" can and must be treated as a proof of guilt.


• Conspiration
  With all respect to Seer, if the Darkrider had indeed cheated and he had noticed that something fishy was going on, it was his duty to either talk it through with the Darkrider (try to dissuade of using the exploit in the future) or report to the judges.
  Unfortunately, at the moment we can only speculate on whether he may have known or no, which, given that we don't know the severity of the loophole, can be majorly judged by the aftereffects on the game process. Again the most competent to judge here would be judges as they've seen the evidence.
  Personally I would like to think that Seer didn't know of this, but as the saying goes - even good people do bad things - I can't guarantee it. But, the punishment of being banned of the future tournaments and/or ranked games seem a bit too excessive to me. 
  If possible, I would like to appeal to judges to review their initial decision and decide Seers sentence publicly by community's vote. This can be also done once the dust settles and the details of the exploit are made public.

@Hilliadan, can you PM/chat me of the details? I am interested on how these exploits can be traced. If it's impossible to tell now, I am ok to wait until the patch is made.

EDIT:
@marcuspers, I believe that you misinterpreted and Hilliadan has said that all 3 judges agreed 100% with the fact Darkrider cheated, but if someone doubts the situation, he can temporary assume the role of the 3-rd judge to review evidence. 
Either way, I am quite curious what was the opinion of the Triumph's devs.

@Jonny When someone is using principles from the 13th century, at least I must stand up and applaud that, never mind if he is right or wrong in his assumptions. But we don't have any options for up-voting here

@Hiliadan, if you say that the vote was 2v1 and a 3rd temporary judge could make a difference, I would love to review the evidence. Or Gilafron, I don't mind!

As for potential changes in rules, in Sweden we have a legal system which in the first case consist of 1 judge and 2 people from the community, so the judge can lose 2-1 in a vote. The second instance is 3 Judges and 0 (to 2) people from the community based on the case, so we could introduce a rule that when someone is being banned, 2 people from the wider community would be included to "bring the voice of the people" to the table, that could even sway a vote of 2-1 in  favour of the "accused".

And when the DarkRider case's dust will have settled, we will still have a situation where it is possible to cheat and it is possible to find out if someone has cheated except if said someone knows how to hide his tracks ? 

Very good point Imperium, and I believe in this case there is no easy answer. We would need to trust the judges to be honest or else we will have an evil circle when someone knows something, then the judges knows something that can't be proved or how to hide it, as you say. Because when judging a tournament, there is episodes when we need to investigate something, and developers cant or wont fix it, so it's better no one knows. Or in a few examples we find it out, and then tell Triumph and they correct it, but they don't have unlimited resources.

And when the DarkRider case's dust will have settled, we will still have a situation where it is possible to cheat and it is possible to find out if someone has cheated except if said someone knows how to hide his tracks ?

Let's try to not heat it up.... I'm going to sleep now but Gilafron, as I clumsily tried a first time with my first PM, I would really like to talk to you in private first, as the more we show in public, the more it helps future cheaters.
If the probity of one judge (me) is in question, we can use the procedure in the rules and ask the 2 other judges to pick a 3rd temporary one, who could for instance be Gilafron, and he could review the proofs. That could be an option.

I'll answer some other comments later, it's late now.

At some point you have to ask yourself whats more likely. If one Judge manipulates all the others, then it´s three persons, plus the two opponents from the game who made the accusations, thats five, plus the devs. So this must be a huge conspiracy against one single player, who in his defence comes up with videos he has deleted beyond any recovery and a message that weren´t send, and his teammate, who did have a benefit from it.

Correct me if i have wrong facts but according to Ockhams razor, i´ll take the most simple explanation.

Look, I'll be upfront.  I don't trust one of the judges in this situation.  In my opinion, he has been domineering and manipulative in the past to get his way.  I'm afraid that is what happened to the two other judges.  That's why I would like to see proof.  Not words, but actual facts so the rest of us can decide for ourselves.

I understand sharing a leak is controversial.  While I still think it should be shared, a sanitized correspondence with developers would go along way in addressing this situation.

I agree with Hellbrick that the most concerning decision was Seer.  I think substantial proof is needed in that area.  Seer has already quit, so the damage is done.  This information would allow me and each community member to evaluate all sides of the issue on their own.

Being a judge in 2 other tournaments, but not the 2v2 tournament, I can understand some of the questions from other players. I guess it's in the human nature to be curious and want to know all details! But I must side with the judges in this case, and I'm almost sure (they might want to confirm) that the judges have collaborated with Triumph and in that way informed the game developers of any potential loop-holes which will therefore be looked at in the next patch?

@Hellbrick, it was my team mate that cheated in a game vs Hiliadan and Rickyroo. He did so in the very last turn (where he killed Hiliadans leader and I had already taken his throne), so it wasn't possible for me to report any breach of rules before it was too late. This was also reported to the developers who was looking into closing some ports that was previously possible to abuse. Again, this was also put under a lid to avoid any temptations for other players to try.

So my only question for clarification is:
Have Triumph been able to isolate the "cheat" and confirmed they will look into how to prevent it, or even already said they will do it in next patch?

/Marcus

That reminds me of the doping investigations in sports. I am sure it`s very difficult to give a 100 % valid proof of cheating if the cheater knows what he is doing. But if there are enough facts that lead to this suspicion, it becomes more likely with every fact. That´s just statistics. But it need careful judges to watch over this facts cause there is always the danger to become obsessed by a conspiracy theory.
I personally think that i can trust our judges to be careful enough and look over every other explanation and see what´s most likely. I do not question this decision. I also don´t what to know how to do this cheating cause that´s tempting for sure